• [00:01:07] What exactly does Oniryx do?
• [00:01:43] Does Oniryx implement CRM systems?
• [00:03:07] How does collective intelligence work at Oniryx?
• [00:05:33] How can we preserve the human role alongside AI?
• [00:06:54] What role do consultants play when working with clients?
• [00:07:52] What contribution did Oniryx make to the development of MyMinfin?
• [00:08:17] Fully bespoke IT solutions?
• [00:08:56] Do people remain at the heart of these solutions?
• [00:08:58] How can we address concerns about the future of jobs?
• [00:09:48] How does Oniryx stand out from the competition?
• [00:10:34] How does Oniryx generate leads?
• [00:12:39] How do you build long-term client loyalty?
• [00:15:36] A way of working that is the opposite of micromanagement?
• [00:16:12] How do you find your place in a horizontal organisation?
• [00:17:23] What are the business development ambitions for 2027 and 2028?
• [00:18:32] What advice would you give someone starting out in IT?
• [00:20:22] Why did Oniryx turn to PHCom?
• [00:21:34] Does the collaboration save time?
• [00:22:36] How do you surround yourself with the right expertise?
• [00:23:11] How would you describe the collaboration with PHCom in three words?
• [00:23:37] Why resume the collaboration after a break?
• [00:25:34] What can we wish Oniryx for the future?

[00:00:13] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial" podcast, produced by PH Com in the "transforma bxl" studio with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

[00:00:23] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial" podcast is designed for marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

[00:00:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Every month, we share best practices in acquiring new clients for businesses operating in business-to-business.

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[00:00:55] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The voicemail is always open for you to leave us a message, and we will be delighted to reply.

[00:01:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by visiting phcom dot be.

[00:01:06] Nadia Ben Jelloun: See you soon.

What exactly does Oniryx do?

[00:01:07] Camille de Meeûs: Hello Mathieu (Mathieu Baugniet: Hello), hello Christophe (Christophe Patris: Hello Camille). We are thrilled to welcome you today to the PHCom podcast. You work for the company Oniryx; tell me a bit more about this company. What do you do specifically?

[00:01:19] Christophe Patris: Oniryx is an IT consulting firm, part of the Blacksheep group, and we also do management consulting. So those are our two main lines of development: IT, where we have experts in various fields such as artificial intelligence, systems integration, and bespoke solution development. And alongside that, we also do change management support, managerial coaching, and management training focusing on new management practices.

Does Oniryx implement CRM systems?

[00:01:43] Camille de Meeûs: If I understand correctly, you implement CRMs in companies, is that right?

[00:01:47] Mathieu Baugniet: Yes, well, I'll let Christophe speak to that. But maybe just a quick word of context, we were founded in 2008, so we've just about reached our age of majority. And it's true that originally, Oniryx is a company that was founded by two or three people, including Geoffroy Fauveaux, who is the founder. For us, right from the start, it was about doing IT a little differently. So, we'll really go into more detail with Christophe about the services we offer, because today there are obviously far more services than before, especially with AI. But back then, the idea was really to create an IT consulting firm with consultants, in a somewhat disruptive way. So for instance, we are organized around collective intelligence, and more specifically at Oniryx, self-management. So that means we give colleagues a lot of autonomy, which allows them to thrive. We also focus heavily on training. Even back then, we offered ten days of training to each consultant with a fairly substantial budget, which allowed people to stay up to speed since IT is constantly evolving.

[00:02:40] Camille de Meeûs: Constantly.

[00:02:41] Mathieu Baugniet: Constantly, but even faster today. And then there are two other things that are also part of our DNA: the feedback culture, and everything related to the package process, meaning people discuss their salaries among themselves. And that allowed us to have a different approach to the IT market, sometimes with profiles of self-taught people who are true experts in their field. The best proof—because people often tell us, "Yeah, but collective intelligence and all that is a bit peculiar, etc. Because there's..."

How does collective intelligence work at Oniryx?

[00:03:07] Camille de Meeûs: And how does it work? What is it in practical terms, so our listeners can understand, because we've heard of collective intelligence before, but it can mean different things?

[00:03:14] Mathieu Baugniet: The main thing for us is that we try to have a flatter hierarchy, meaning everyone has a right to speak. So there you go. Now at Igroove, which is the second company that was created afterwards, that's more participatory management, so everyone has a voice, but ultimately a decision is still made from above. For us, the idea is really that everything emerges from our colleagues. Well, it's sometimes very challenging, but it remains very interesting, and the best proof that it works—I'll let Christophe add to this later since he's experienced it even longer than I have—for example, we've been recognized at the Trends Gazelles for the province of Namur on seven occasions, and we won the title of Ambassador in 2023. We're not just saying it for the sake of saying it...

[00:03:51] Camille de Meeûs: No, but it means (Mathieu Baugniet: Great, we won an award) that there is real work behind it and that your way of operating is also bearing fruit.

[00:03:55] Mathieu Baugniet: Exactly, that's it. So actually, the idea was to say, "We also know how to do business in a way that is, let's say, different and disruptive." So maybe I'll let Christophe add to that.

[00:04:04] Christophe Patris: Well, I think you've already provided a lot of information regarding collective intelligence. So we also used a whole series of mechanisms, sociocratic processes, etc. Decision-making, setting up working groups with defined work scopes. Decisions are made collectively, and responsibility is also assumed collectively for the decisions that are taken. The entire life of the company runs through working groups, while always maintaining accountability for the expertise present.

[00:04:29] Mathieu Baugniet: And if I had to give an example, my colleague might tell us, "Look, I'd like to organize an event in two weeks, invite all the colleagues to play board games." We tell her, "OK, no problem, the company is even willing to give you a small budget, but if you take the initiative, you manage the project from A to Z." And that's what's a bit different with us, so it's "No problem, you do it. But if there's a problem, you're the one who has to take ownership of it."

[00:04:50] Camille de Meeûs: You make room for creativity and you try to give everyone the same (Christophe Patris: Yes, exactly) space, we could kind of...

[00:04:54] Christophe Patris: Exactly. In fact, the idea (Camille de Meeûs: OK, that's exactly the principle) is, here we took a nice process, "Okay, we're doing an event, we're organizing an event," but of course it's also in business creation, development, IT solutions, creating new concepts, directly integrating new methodologies. For example, we were having difficulties at a client's, we realized that around us, projects were struggling to emerge, to get off the ground, with very, very strong human difficulties, we realized that agile alone wasn't enough. And so we implemented a whole system that we called the BlackSheep method to, precisely, place people at the center of development. Well, here we are, we use a feature of our collective intelligence in service of our client, with the client's permission, of course.

How can we preserve the human role alongside AI?

[00:05:33] Camille de Meeûs: That's very interesting, I'll bounce off of that, you talk about the human factor, but you are in a sector where the human element risks being forgotten with everything involving artificial intelligence, etc. How do you perceive that today? How do you manage it?

[00:05:42] Christophe Patris: In fact, we noticed it a very, very long time ago because we are very, very active and we closely monitor technology, which means we do a tremendous amount of tech watching, both at the level of the directors, the founder, myself, and the technical teams. We have meeting areas where we discuss precisely what the future will look like. And to answer your question very specifically, two years ago, we already launched an augmented intelligence campaign. So we are not talking about artificial intelligence or human intelligence, or one versus the other, but rather connecting these two types of intelligence available in the field to boost the business. And so that is our main focus for the coming years: turning that innovative idea we had two years ago into reality—fully integrating artificial intelligence with human intelligence to create augmented intelligence, but also to generate value. What we care about is creating value, not cutting costs, but simply creating value from this existing mix. And so we are working immensely on that part right now.

[00:06:36] Camille de Meeûs: So augmented intelligence is artificial intelligence plus human intelligence.

[00:06:41] Christophe Patris: It is human intelligence backed by all the mechanisms and the full power of artificial intelligence, which has made a huge leap over the last two years. And actually, the idea is to benefit from these tools and truly make them a partner for our consultants, you know!

What role do consultants play when working with clients?

[00:06:54] Camille de Meeûs: Well, speaking of consultants, are your consultants salespeople within the company? So are they the ones you send to your clients to perform the migrations, how does it actually work at that point?

[00:07:02] Christophe Patris: In business, they always say that the consultant is the primary salesperson, and that is just as true for us. No, our consultants are there to help our clients develop solutions, whether they engage them on a time-and-materials basis, a fixed-price contract, or whatever—what matters to us is a commitment to delivery. Our reputation is built on the fact that we deliver the solutions we propose to our clients, and we deliver them with initiative and drive in carrying out the mission. And so we are often very, very, very precise in terms of quality, very, very, very precise in terms of scheduling, and very, very precise in terms of budget. And we manage to ensure that the coordination of these three elements is always prominent for our client, or at least always present.

[00:07:41] Mathieu Baugniet: I can perhaps give a few success stories. Historically, we've worked for major public services, for instance MyMinfin, well that's an application in which teams of ours really participated very actively.

What contribution did Oniryx make to the development of MyMinfin?

[00:07:52] Camille de Meeûs: In the design phase?

[00:07:52] Christophe Patris: In the creation. A few years ago now, since you've been filing your personal income tax electronically for several years, well, there were people, consultants from Oniryx who took part in setting up those platforms. And to answer your question, we specialize not specifically in CRM, but in platforms tailored specifically to our clients. So if the client needs a CRM or needs a custom development like My-something, right? MyMinfin, MyOres, here the latest one.

Fully bespoke IT solutions?

[00:08:17] Camille de Meeûs: It goes beyond simple implementation actually, it's custom-made, could we put it that way too?

[00:08:21] Christophe Patris: We do completely custom-made work, yes (Camille de Meeûs: Ok). Yes, yes absolutely.

[00:08:24] Mathieu Baugniet: Well, it's true that more recently, one of our successes here was the MyOres portal, we're already on version two, I think. So, yes, that's the kind of application we build, and it's true that now we have also brought on board services from AI specialists in particular. And so, well, that's a market we're going to have to tackle a bit, but we're already established there, you know. And it's true that for us, regarding AI, just to build on what Christophe was saying, it's true that we see it as a tool. For us, the human aspect, precisely, all these IT professionals, these consultants who really have a lot of experience now, well, that's precisely where the added value lies. So it has to remain a tool, and the human behind it needs to be able to offer something.

Do people remain at the heart of these solutions?

[00:08:56] Camille de Meeûs: And still be around?

[00:08:57] Christophe Patris: Ah, very, very concretely. Yes, yes.

How can we address concerns about the future of jobs?

[00:08:58] Camille de Meeûs: That's the goal too, I imagine (Mathieu Baugniet: Yes), to say "Humans shouldn't fade into oblivion", because that's the thing, it's scary today. You guys are pioneers, you saw this coming a long time ago, but what would you like to say to people who say, "Gosh, tomorrow my job won't be here anymore, actually, what am I going to do about that?"

[00:09:11] Christophe Patris: Some jobs may indeed disappear, or even be completely transformed, but artificial intelligence should also be seen as a tool for economic rebound. We often see the negative consequences for certain professions in certain contexts; that would really be too narrow-minded, we have to look at artificial intelligence as a driving force for value creation. And if we adopt that perspective, we will realize that it's going to open up business opportunities that we didn't have in the past. It's not just about doing cost reduction, cost reduction; if we look at artificial intelligence merely to cut costs and therefore reduce staff, etc., I think we're heading down a negative path. It has to be seen as value creation, and we have been integrating that into our concepts for two years now.

How does Oniryx stand out from the competition?

[00:09:48] Camille de Meeûs: I imagine there is quite a lot of competition in your sector. What is it like on that front? How do you differentiate yourselves in practice?

[00:09:53] Christophe Patris: Well, we aren't afraid of taking on large, established groups that have massive resources, precisely because we are somewhat disruptive, as you will have gathered throughout our conversation here; we are disruptive in our approach to artificial intelligence. But artificial intelligence is just one element; there are plenty of other things hitting the market that we are already reflecting on, which I won't list here. And our competitors, well, they are experiencing the same thing as us; they are also going through a digital transformation, except that digital transformation is applying to them. Which, for the past thirty years, had never happened in the IT sector. And so it is about benefiting from this entire new technological approach. And once again, here we are talking about artificial intelligence, focusing heavily on it, but there are many other things coming that are going to be disruptive, and all competing companies really need to start thinking differently.

How does Oniryx generate leads?

[00:10:34] Camille de Meeûs: Now we are really going to get down to business on the commercial side: how does it work on a day-to-day basis for you? How do you generate leads? What do you have in place?

[00:10:43] Christophe Patris: There is a bit of business confidentiality involved in what we're discussing here, but as we were saying, we talked about artificial intelligence, we talked about augmented intelligence for us—well, augmented intelligence is at the marketing level, where we have completely overhauled how we generate leads. So lead management has been completely redesigned with this integration of artificial intelligence serving our marketers, right? There is someone present in the room here who can attest to that. The same goes for opportunity management, value creation, and drafting our proposals too, with this augmented value that artificial intelligence brings us in terms of quality and schedule management as well. And ultimately in cost, because what also interests the client is the cost.

[00:11:18] Mathieu Baugniet: And then what we also realize is that, well, what has also evolved a bit at times—which is why, working in communications myself, well, we also help the sales department—is that it's great nowadays to be on social media; well, obviously we have to respond to public tenders so some things remain confidential, but we've also realized that now we go out into the field much more, we go to trade shows like Municipalia, we used to go to developer events a lot. We go to a lot more evening networking events and, in fact, by talking to people, we understand their needs much more easily and we obviously feel there's an urgency right now, since everyone is getting moving, especially with AI, which everyone keeps talking about. But it's true that human contact remains important, and going to these kinds of events is really important for us because we can genuinely talk with people and say, "Ah well, we know you." Before, you know, we sometimes stayed maybe a bit on our own home turf—we're in Wallonia, we're well known. But, you know, we had our long-standing clients, and so on. Here, the idea is rather to branch out, so I'm thinking of a recent contact we had with Dreamwall, which is a little Walloon gem offering a lot of things; well, it's true that they want to transform themselves too. And it's great because what I notice is that I used to tell myself, "Well, at 43 years old, okay, you already have an established career," but you can feel that they, with AI, want to reinvent themselves in a new way by doing a lot more video mapping in museums. And for us, well, that's a sector we wouldn't have even thought of entering a year ago. And so, quite ironically, it's really human contact once again when we go to these kinds of events that allows us to perhaps open up to other private companies.

How do you build long-term client loyalty?

[00:12:39] Camille de Meeûs: In your sector, I find that what is stimulating is that you are constantly evolving (Christophe Patris: Yes) all the time, whether in customer relations because (Mathieu Baugniet: It can be exhausting sometimes) of what you develop. Yes, yes, you also have to keep up with that, I mean, it must be fast-paced (Mathieu Baugniet: Yes), your days... But I think that stimulating aspect must give so much energy and motivation. And speaking of which, how do you build client loyalty over the long term? I assume that processes at your end, well, take time: discussing, seeing what really needs to be put in place, how does it work at that level?

[00:13:05] Christophe Patris: So, as I've already mentioned, we build client loyalty through the quality of our deliverables. So we always tend to say, "We're actually a delivery company." That means when a client trusts us and signs a contract with us, well, they know—or in any case they will get the results of what they signed for. And so we get feedback, we conduct surveys like any traditional company, we run satisfaction surveys, we see if our clients are satisfied. Our clients have been renewing their commitment with us for years. Oniryx's very first client is still a client 20 years later, which means client retention is practically part of our DNA. But how? Qualitatively, by supporting our clients, understanding their needs, anticipating their needs, and conducting tech monitoring for them. So we've been talking about AI for years, we talk about many other upcoming IT topics, but also about change management, etc. And I'd also like to build on change management, specifically regarding our DNA: five years ago, we actually noticed that our clients were having difficulties. Some clients, some prospects were struggling with how they envisioned management or change, or how they integrated change into their business. And we realized that by providing IT solutions, we were often the reason for change. And with our DNA based on collective intelligence, feedback, our sociocratic processes, etc., and all this mechanics of managerial support and change management support. In fact, we set everything up, including a supplementary service that allows us to have a stronger impact. That is to say, when we deliver an IT solution, we can also take charge of its entire lifecycle and its integration into the company. And so it's a much broader framework that we offer to our clients. And that's also how we retain our clients.

[00:14:40] Mathieu Baugniet: There's that, and then there's also the fact that we follow up with them, we organize a lot of events, and we also have people—I'm thinking of a colleague, Carole—we really have people who are great listeners, and that's important. Also because of our size, we're more of an SME with 150 people, but being able to also have a different corporate culture, we see that our colleagues don't always react like others. You know, sometimes they run into attitudes from people who, well, will just do the bare minimum. Well, that's not at all in our DNA; listening attentively is super important, and then hosting events, following up, basically making sure the relationship is healthy. And our size allows us to do that too, you know.

[00:15:14] Christophe Patris: So we have working groups that also focus on customer satisfaction, feedback as you mentioned, with specific colleagues who manage the account, who do account management with our clients; that's super important for us. To really understand the need, to anticipate—once again, I often repeat the same thing—but to really understand the need and position ourselves as tech experts to address those specific needs. And so, yeah, providing an added service to our clients.

A way of working that is the opposite of micromanagement?

[00:15:36] Camille de Meeûs: That's great because we can hear so much passion when you speak, and I think to myself, "More companies should operate like you do." I mean, you are really the polar opposite of micromanagement, wouldn't you say?

[00:15:46] Mathieu Baugniet: If I may jump in, because coming from my background, I spent 20 years in journalism where it was sometimes very hierarchical, very structured. I know I've talked about this with Christophe and Geoffroy, our founder, so I won't give any spoilers, but... When I first arrived, you shouldn't think that everything is rosy; there are other challenges. And for instance, having a flat organization can sometimes be very challenging because, speaking from my own experience, everyone wants to weigh in on communication in the company. At first, it was very tough for me; usually, you have the comms manager saying, "You do it like this, like this, like this," but here, everyone has their own little opinion...

How do you find your place in a horizontal organisation?

[00:16:12] Camille de Meeûs: Difficult to hold your ground?

[00:16:13] Mathieu Baugniet: Not really, but it's just that everyone has an opinion, and sometimes it's expressed in a way... So there you have it, so there are other challenges, but it's true that it brings—personally speaking, if I just look at my own case—it brings an openness. And then you're allowed to do things, to take the initiative on things, and that's really very enjoyable. A simple example: we created a studio in our manor—originally a TV studio—that we turned into a podcast studio, so I'm happy because for once, I'm...

[00:16:35] Camille de Meeûs: On the other side

[00:16:35] Mathieu Baugniet: I'm on the other side. But there you go, that's an initiative I wouldn't have been allowed to do, perhaps in a more conventional company. It's true that it's nice because, when you have some experience and so on, well, it's great to also be able to propose other things and have people tell you, "Well, go for it, but you take full ownership."

[00:16:49] Christophe Patris: And so what is illustrated here in one specific area, which is communication and marketing for us, with the creation of the studio and various other elements, is completely true for every aspect of daily life. So whether it's in life, events, practical office life, etc. But it goes much further than that; it also applies to, "Well, what IT or change management initiatives can we implement?". For instance, there is an initiative currently being rolled out to combine human intelligence, the intelligence provided by artificial intelligence, and managerial management practices with all the existing plans, and to coordinate all of that into a single solution. It's a grassroots initiative.

What are the business development ambitions for 2027 and 2028?

[00:17:23] Camille de Meeûs: Honestly, it fascinates me. The way you talk about it and everything you offer, it's really refreshing to hear people who have ideas that are a bit out of the ordinary, I think. To get back a bit to the commercial aspect, what are your next objectives, the next ambitions that are important to you? Right now, we are in May 2026. Is there anything you can share with us for 2027–2028?

[00:17:42] Christophe Patris: Of course not, and so no! Laughter - That's humor! That is also a characteristic trait, humor is always present in our company as well. Yes, we clearly are, we specialize in the public sector, and we have had our foundation in that area for nearly 20 years. Without giving any spoilers, well, we are moving toward diversification; we have already started that journey. We are also moving toward the diversification of the services offered. We offer more than just IT for IT's sake or bespoke developments; rather, we take all these augmented intelligence concepts and deploy them in the field. And so our goal for next year is growth based on new managerial and IT practices over the next 3 years. So, there is a digital transformation with a new sector approach also being put in place. Always consolidating the foundation is the classic reflex, and we have to keep that because our clients are satisfied and we need to keep our clients. That is obviously the foundation, but we are moving toward a diversification of our portfolio.

What advice would you give someone starting out in IT?

[00:18:32] Camille de Meeûs: What advice would you give today to someone starting out in your sector?

[00:18:35] Christophe Patris: As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there really is a shift with the new IT practices coming in. And I mean new practices, artificial intelligence, and others. I strongly emphasize, it is not only that coming down the line. I would say that, if a student were starting their studies in this field—the IT field—I would tell them to think carefully about already integrating all these tools into their academic path and integrating it into their future vision of who they will be on the market. What is a bit tricky in our era is that you couldn't go wrong choosing to go into IT, but now you can also miss the turn. The turn is already embraced while you are a student, just like you use and hold your mobile phone because in your time it was the mobile phone that took over, and there you have it, well, it's the same thing. That is to say that artificial intelligence and new IT practices must be integrated into future consultants. So that is what I would tell them. And don't be afraid to be entrepreneurial.

[00:19:23] Camille de Meeûs: That's the most important thing today!

[00:19:24] Christophe Patris: That's exactly it. And so, as you see here and as you say, we are a team of passionate people. And so if you have the passion, you will succeed. So passion motivates, it allows you to take on challenges. And here, in our company and within our structure, it is magnified. That is to say, that's what we look for in our consultants: bringing that little spark of different thinking that allows us to position ourselves in places that weren't originally meant for us.

[00:19:47] Mathieu Baugniet: Yeah, you also need a bit of passion because, as we all know, even us still now, careers aren't linear like before, staying with the same employer for your entire life, etc. Sometimes you find yourself at 40, at 50, and you see that in your sector—for me, that was the case in journalism—well, you feel there are changes, does it still suit you? And so it's true that the agility we practice in IT remains important, but now you almost need even more of it. So sometimes it can be difficult, but if you're passionate, everything is easier.

[00:20:14] Camille de Meeûs: For sure, and it's always nice to get up in the morning despite the difficulties (Mathieu Baugniet: Exactly). If the passion is there, you keep going, you move forward always with a lot of motivation.

[00:20:21] Christophe Patris: Exactly!

Why did Oniryx turn to PHCom?

[00:20:22] Camille de Meeûs: Now, we are going to talk a little bit about the collaboration with PHC om. Why did you reach out to us?

[00:20:26] Christophe Patris: You asked the question, saying, "How have you improved over time, moving from an idea, a company, to becoming—I'll use the classic business terms—so we were a start-up that became a scale-up and is now transforming into an industrial company?" Yes, we received an industry and large business award in the Namur region, which is certainly an established milestone, but how do we achieve this transformation? Because there is a dual transformation: going from a start-up to a scale-up, and from a scale-up to an industry. That is the core question. Well, we reviewed all our processes, once again relying on collective intelligence; we created working groups, we redefined all our processes. And at one point, we realized that one of the weak processes was our ability to handle lead management, or at least to generate leads. Well, that's how this reflection came about with Bert, our sales rep; he contributed, he created a working group, and said, "I might be able to bring in more incoming leads simply if we made use of existing market experts." We don't intend to replace market experts ourselves, but on the other hand, we know how to scout out hidden gems. And for us, PHCom emerged as that differentiator that allowed us to capture more leads, build better awareness, and be more precise in our customer relationships. And that's how we see PHCom here.

Does the collaboration save time?

[00:21:34] Camille de Meeûs: Does that also allow you to save time and be more productive?

[00:21:37] Christophe Patris: Exactly, that's one of the points that came out. That is to say, before, our sales department handled everything, including lead generation, finding clients, finding prospects—call it whatever you like—but it took a huge amount of time. And that time spent, well, is time that can't be dedicated to quality work on other elements. And so it didn't allow us to make that necessary leap from a scale-up to an established industrial company. So yes, indeed, PHCom allows us to focus our sales energy on things that are within its scope, within its sphere of activity. And so collective intelligence means respecting the expertise around us; it's not about doing everything haphazardly, and I really insist on that. Just because we're motivated and eager to do things doesn't mean we're specialists in lead generation. It's not our specialty (Camille de Meeûs: It's not your primary scope, basically), and so collective intelligence says, "When you have the opportunity to partner with expertise, use that expertise, embrace that expertise where it is found, respect it, use it." And so that's actually how our working groups operate.

How do you surround yourself with the right expertise?

[00:22:36] Camille de Meeûs: And basically surrounding yourself with efficient and relevant people in their sector?

[00:22:40] Christophe Patris: Exactly. Earlier you were saying, "Well, how do your competitors behave?" We often see our competitors more as partners too. It's with them that we can do business to approach clients. It's also with them that we can envision new concepts as well. And that's how you have to look at things; we are in a transforming world, a hyper-collaborative world, etc. You have to get into that mindset. And so, seeking out expertise where it is—we can't be experts in every field—the idea of partnering with third-party companies that allow us to pivot and grow, well, PHCom is exactly, concretely what can be illustrated like that.

How would you describe the collaboration with PHCom in three words?

[00:23:11] Camille de Meeûs: If you had to define your collaboration with PHCom in three words. What would come to your mind?

[00:23:16] Christophe Patris: Well, complicated at first because the initial collaboration was poorly set up, the framework was poorly established, and so we actually realized that we hadn't utilized PHCom for its expertise, but simply used it as an "out of the box" tool, without integrating it into our business strategy. And so the initial contact was complicated—how do you bounce back positively from a difficult start?

Why resume the collaboration after a break?

[00:23:37] Camille de Meeûs: Especially since there was a two-year break and then you came back, right? That's it, yeah.

[00:23:39] Christophe Patris: Exactly. And so the first thing, when something doesn't work, the first thing is to be able to look internally at what isn't working. Not quite two years—one year, a year and a few months. But we actually took a step back, and we revisited things; we asked you to run an analysis on why the campaigns we had launched hadn't been productive. We analyzed it, took into account everything you had done, created working groups at the sales level, and brought them on board. And so Bert, whom you know since you are in contact with him, but also Carole and other people we mentioned, sat around the table and started thinking, "Well, how can we have a stronger impact on this part?". And we realized, "Look, we need to bring in expertise in this area, in that area, etc.". And we actually built a better communication channel with PHcom. And here, well, we launched a second campaign that is positive. That's how we bounce back with collective intelligence; once again, the goal is not to dwell on failure, but to learn. You always have to learn and fix what went wrong. And then, when we realize that we are more mature and have reached the necessary expertise to collaborate together, that's when we revive the ideas. And that's why we came back to you and relaunched the campaign. And a third one now, as a matter of fact.

[00:24:40] Camille de Meeûs: You also have this ability to question yourselves, to have the humility to say, "Okay, we can't do everything, we need to surround ourselves with the right people, and that's how we'll succeed." I get the impression that this is your company's philosophy.

[00:24:50] Mathieu Baugniet: Well, having experienced it in another life—I used to be a journalist, especially in TV—sometimes it was two reports a day, so you might have the one for the 1:00 PM news that goes well, and then the 7:00 PM one isn't good. So it's a process of questioning that... Well, that can be exhausting because it's every single day. But yes, I feel that ability, and well, that's also what appeals to me and keeps me at Oniryx; yes, you really feel that constant self-questioning, which doesn't suit everyone, to be honest. But it's true that in the five years I've been here, the way we've evolved has been really, well, there's truly been... The best proof, too, is that we really have clients now, new clients with, well, pretty interesting projects. And that's also the goal of working with you: precisely to open up and seek out clients where maybe we aren't present yet.

What can we wish Oniryx for the future?

[00:25:34] Camille de Meeûs: What can we wish you for the future?

[00:25:36] Christophe Patris: To continue all the investments we're making and make them last, to show that we can be disruptive in our approach, that we can put things in place, stay motivated, stay passionate. People can wish us all the best, but I think we already have a lot going for us right now, so we'll stay humble. Let's carry on with what we already have now, transform ourselves, and continue leveraging our strengths.

[00:25:54] Mathieu Baugniet: Yes, well, that's really it. Yes, to prove that this model can also provide not only economic sustainability, but human sustainability as well.

[00:26:00] Camille de Meeûs: Thank you Mathieu, thank you Christophe for (Mathieu Baugniet: Thank you Camille) your participation today (Christophe Patris: Thank you Camille, it was a pleasure), and all the best for the future.

• [00:01:08] What exactly does Revalio do?
• [00:01:48] How did Revalio get started?
• [00:02:34] What sets Revalio apart from the competition?
• [00:03:24] How do you win clients over and build loyalty?
• [00:04:23] What works well, and less well, in the sales approach?
• [00:05:22] Do businesses feel a sense of environmental urgency?
• [00:06:42] What tools help manage the sales pipeline and follow-ups?
• [00:07:18] Does artificial intelligence pose a threat to jobs?
• [00:08:33] How much time do attention to detail and technical analysis require?
• [00:09:05] What is Revalio’s next business development ambition?
• [00:09:53] Why choose PHCom for business development?
• [00:11:17] What time savings does working with PHCom bring?
• [00:11:54] How would you describe the collaboration with PHCom in three words?
• [00:12:43] What can we wish Revalio for the future?

[00:00:13] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial" podcast, produced by PH Com in the "transforma bxl" studio with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org"

[00:00:23] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial" podcast is intended for marketing and sales managers, as well as business leaders with commercial responsibilities.

[00:00:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Every month, we share best practices in prospecting for new clients for businesses operating in business-to-business.

[00:00:38] Nadia Ben Jelloun: You can find every episode on the PHCom dot be P.H.C.O.M. website and also on all good podcast platforms.

[00:00:47] Stéphane Depaepe: You can support this podcast and boost its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible with a like, a comment, a share.

[00:00:55] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The voicemail is always active so you can leave us a message; we will be delighted to reply.

[00:01:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by visiting PHCom dot be.

[00:01:06] Nadia Ben Jelloun: See you soon.

[00:01:07] Camille de Meeûs: Hello Louis

What exactly does Revalio do?

[00:01:08] Louis De Muylder: Hello Camille

[00:01:08] Camille de Meeûs: We are delighted to have you on the PHCom podcast today. So, you work for the company Revalio—tell us a bit about what you do in concrete terms.

[00:01:16] Louis De Muylder: Actually, at Revalio, what we do is completely revolutionize our current way of managing water. That means we currently have a very linear approach: we pump quality groundwater, we use it, wear it out, and then, well, this wastewater is sent to a treatment plant, which discharges into a river, and then, to put it simply, it ends up in the sea. And what we want, well, is to recreate circularity in our own water cycle, that of human activity. That means we treat wastewater so it can be reused, giving it a second life. And we mainly work in industrial settings, because that's where there is a massive amount of work to be done.

How did Revalio get started?

[00:01:48] Camille de Meeûs: How did Revalio get started? What gave you the idea to launch such a concept, if I may put it that way?

[00:01:54] Louis De Muylder: The story of Revalio really starts with our very first project, which began before Revalio was born: water management at the Princess Elisabeth station in Antarctica. So it was truly an extraordinary project because you find yourself in a context where, as you can well imagine, this station—we can all picture it—is really lost in the middle of an immense white desert. And so obviously, well, what do you do with water? Wastewater? And where do you discharge it? But also, how do you produce this water? And so that's where the concept of reusing and upcycling water takes on its full meaning. And so we designed a system for this station that was capable of treating water directly on-site, let's say in the building's basement, making it possible to use yesterday's wastewater to power, well, tomorrow's shower.

What sets Revalio apart from the competition?

[00:02:34] Camille de Meeûs: Is there a lot of competition in this field? What sets you apart?

[00:02:38] Louis De Muylder: In fact, the water sector is as old as the hills, so there are indeed large companies, and the industry has often been divided between water treaters who focus on drinking water—high-quality water—and the wastewater treatment segment, those who work on sewage. But now, with the paradigm I've just explained, where we ultimately achieve circularity, we're starting to connect wastewater treatment to regenerate high-quality water. And that's just it, that's where our positioning becomes, shall we say, innovative: we close the loop, and on top of that, we actively focus on optimizing water usage itself for our clients. What that really means is: do you actually need to consume the water you're consuming? Namely, rethinking cooling processes, cleaning processes, and so on. To ensure we can do more while consuming less water, and on top of that, by reusing that water.

How do you win clients over and build loyalty?

[00:03:24] Camille de Meeûs: How do you currently manage to convince your clients to continue with you? Because these processes sometimes take time, how do you manage to build loyalty with these people?

[00:03:33] Louis De Muylder: Actually, what makes it very easy is that: we are all, individually, aware that water is a major issue; we all place importance on having quality water. We know that it is directly linked to our personal, physical health. But also to that of the environment—not a single tree or animal can live without quality water, so it really is the lifeblood of our overall environment. Therefore, the discussion always flows very easily. There is genuinely a lot of interest among our clients and with everyone we talk to in moving forward in the field of water. However, what is much less clear is that, yes, we know that at home we should turn off the tap when brushing our teeth, but how do we do that when dealing with larger or more complex industrial activities? And that is where our discussion becomes interesting, because we first explore with the client all those improvement opportunities they have in their plant or operations, in order to jointly define which priority areas to work on!

What works well, and less well, in the sales approach?

[00:04:23] Camille de Meeûs: On a commercial level, what is working well and what is working less well today?

[00:04:27] Louis De Muylder: In fact, we're an organization where we barely have a sales team. What we're trying to do isn't positioning ourselves by selling, pushing a product where we're trying to drive volume. What we mainly want is to co-create projects with our clients. As a result, the discussion is more of a collaborative dialogue rather than a pitch trying at all costs to convince people of the product's benefits and merits. The idea is that there is actually immense potential for improvement. We know this well with the energy sector, for example; it is under close scrutiny because of the challenges linked to climate change, obviously, renewable energy, but also geopolitics, which means energy is something we work on and optimize down to the finest details. Water, on the other hand, is still somewhat the poor relation; it isn't leveraged enough yet, so there is certainly no lack of work or projects. What's needed is to co-build them to realize that, yes, a return on investment is also possible in water. And yes, the impact is truly tangible and significant, and there are many quick wins within reach.

Do businesses feel a sense of environmental urgency?

[00:05:22] Camille de Meeûs: In your opinion, do people increasingly have this circular, ecological awareness? Do you feel that when you meet a company for the first time that has an interest in Revalio? Do they have—can we sense this urgency, perhaps?

[00:05:35] Louis De Muylder: There is awareness, that's for sure; an urgency really depends on the person. But in fact, when talking about practical cases, we need to go beyond awareness; we also have to show that it addresses an economic, practical, operational reality that will enable efficiency gains, better cost control, and greater business resilience to prevent reduced operations or shutdowns during droughts. To optimize costs on the water bill, on treatment costs. And also operational efficiency gains because ultimately, if we improve management—the way water is used in the plant, in cleaning and cooling processes—we can also achieve greater operational performance for the business. And actually, you need to be down to earth, and that's where we need to work together, with clients and partners, to really implement projects that make sense. Because nowadays, coming in to sell a project that looks all nice and shiny, as they say...

[00:06:20] Camille de Meeûs: ...but is completely meaningless!

[00:06:21] Louis De Muylder: That's just not enough anymore.

[00:06:21] Camille de Meeûs: Yes, exactly. So there is no longer that need to convince people; once there's interest and they want to meet with Revalio, that awareness is truly present.

[00:06:30] Louis De Muylder: Yes, I think the awareness is definitely there; what's needed is to work concretely on "OK, so how do we actually do it?" And how is the solution going to work? How do we connect the different parts of the plant or the operation so that it works?

What tools help manage the sales pipeline and follow-ups?

[00:06:42] Camille de Meeûs: Do you have specific tools or practices today to manage your pipeline, follow-ups, and appointments within Revalio?

[00:06:49] Louis De Muylder: Well yes, in fact I think the revolution currently taking place with artificial intelligence is massive. Obviously, we have the advantage of being a young company, so we have fully embraced artificial intelligence in our work, which means what we try to do is spend as little time as possible clicking around. And spend as much time as possible in person on-site with clients or developing—well, delivering the projects we work on. And that, I think, compared to how things used to be done, is a radical shift that allows us to have a much sharper focus and deliver far more value.

Does artificial intelligence pose a threat to jobs?

[00:07:18] Camille de Meeûs: Artificial intelligence in your industry—isn't it an obstacle? In your case, it actually helps you on a day-to-day basis. Are your jobs not at risk because of artificial intelligence, or is there still some fear underneath?

[00:07:29] Louis De Muylder: No, there really is no fear at all because artificial intelligence, well, first of all, it allows us to structure a team in our company that is entirely focused on water treatment and water reuse, so we will genuinely have the entire team composed of engineers specialized in the field. And then artificial intelligence, well, it's going to be the tool that helps them become even more productive in their work. On the other hand, there are two things: first, let's say, the capacity for judgment regarding solutions because, in the end, water is very complex chemistry, all water sources are different, and you also have to bring them to a quality level that is often variable, and that must be based on a successive layer of treatment processes. And there is also a sort of need for a capacity for judgment based on practical, hands-on experience. And on top of that, there is technical expertise on-site, in the field: you have to know how to calibrate probes, size pumps and basins, and dose chemical inputs with the right ratio and proper mixing capacity in the treatment process. So a major part of it is actually technical, because it really is technical engineering, so it's not just about brainpower; there is also judgment, and there are hands that have to follow through as well.

How much time do attention to detail and technical analysis require?

[00:08:33] Camille de Meeûs: There is also a lot of meticulousness in what you do; it must be hard. The patience, the attention to detail, the analysis you do—all of that takes time in the end, doesn't it?

[00:08:40] Louis De Muylder: Yes, it takes a lot of time. And so artificial intelligence is great for clearing the ground, for writing faster, for creating the whole framework, but ultimately the fine judgment of what will work and what won't, of what will actually have an impact—what seems like a good idea from artificial intelligence, but could have a negative impact on another part of the plant's operations, on energy, or otherwise—might not be taken into account. And that is where an individual's experience and technical expertise have tremendous value.

What is Revalio’s next business development ambition?

[00:09:05] Camille de Meeûs: What is the next big ambition or commercial goal for Revalio?

[00:09:09] Louis De Muylder: In fact, the first ambition we have is—our project was really born out of the Antarctic project, a scientific station, with truly advanced and highly refined water management. So, circularity, a genuinely continuous reuse of wastewater. And our primary ambition is to convince dozens, hundreds of industrial sites in Belgium, in our country, to embark on this journey. And it's not a complete process that can be done at the snap of a finger; there are many aspects where progress is needed, regarding the plant's water source, rainwater harvesting, wastewater management, and the optimization of internal processes. So, in fact, our goal is to embark together, to build long-term relationships with the entire Belgian industrial fabric to help them progress toward more efficient and sustainable water management.

Why choose PHCom for business development?

[00:09:53] Camille de Meeûs: Commercially speaking, you turned to a partner, PHCom, specifically to help you with this development. Why did you choose us, and how did it come about in the first place?

[00:10:04] Louis De Muylder: We were talking about artificial intelligence earlier, and there's one aspect that can't be replaced, and that's the human relationship. And that's also at the heart of the co-development work we do with our clients at Revalio. On the other hand, prospecting is a word with rather negative connotations, but which in itself, ultimately, is quite healthy—it's about introducing yourself and explaining that we'd like to build projects together. Well, it takes a tremendous amount of time, and we realized that by working as a team, in collaboration with PHCom, we were able to build far more relationships in a very stable, highly systematized way, and without, let's say, degrading the quality of the relationship being built. Because we unfortunately have this preconceived notion of harassment from telecom or energy bill callers (Camille de Meeûs: Cold calling), intrusive cold calling, whereas here we take an approach where we don't force anyone's hand at all. We introduce ourselves, draw attention to a topic that offers sustainability benefits as well as economic ones, and ultimately propose building a relationship, a dialogue. So even the meetings that follow up on calls, we approach them with that same mindset of: "We're not desperately trying to sell you something, meaning that if you're not ready to buy right away, well, we hang up and move on to the next person." We want to forge connections and see how we can continue supporting Belgian industry toward more sustainable water management.

What time savings does working with PHCom bring?

[00:11:17] Camille de Meeûs: Does working with PHCom save you time on a day-to-day basis?

[00:11:21] Louis De Muylder: Huge. The time savings are truly massive because one might think it's very quick to just go: "Yeah, okay, I have the phone number, I make a call, we talk for five minutes, and it's done." But first, the person isn't always available, you have to follow up, then you have to speak to their colleague who is actually in charge of the topic, and that can take a huge amount of time. Whereas, as I said before, the most important thing for us is to co-create projects with clients and, above all, deliver them. And that's where we want to invest our time, and that's where we add the most value, and this collaboration with PHCom allows us to focus on what matters most while nurturing and building this network of contacts in the industry.

How would you describe the collaboration with PHCom in three words?

[00:11:54] Camille de Meeûs: If you had to define the collaboration with PHCom in three words, what would you say?

[00:11:58] Louis De Muylder: Clearly: speed, efficiency in communication. There is also very interesting feedback, I find, an expertise from PHCom in the industry, in how to present solutions, etc. And then the third, I would say there is a professionalism in the way things are done. Sometimes, you feel frustrated having a call, someone on the phone doing outreach who ultimately doesn't seem to know the product or doesn't sell it and explain it with much passion (Camille de Meeûs: Without believing in it, yes that's it) and enthusiasm. And here, we feel that our partners at PHCom take the approach and the product seriously, and they also take seriously doing everything to protect the company's reputation. It's also very reassuring to entrust this first impression to a partner; it's very reassuring to be in hands that know what they're doing!

What can we wish Revalio for the future?

[00:12:43] Camille de Meeûs: What can we wish Revalio for the future?

[00:12:45] Louis De Muylder: Well, for Revalio going forward, I think for water management in Europe, it is to keep expanding our activities across the entire European industrial fabric, both to allow companies to be more efficient in their work, to stay focused on their core essentials and business, but also to ensure that we can continue producing in Europe sustainably—that's really what we wish for Revalio. And on the other hand, as a bit of a nod, we come from Antarctica, we love highly complex situations in truly extreme environments, and so we keep going—we can't announce it yet, but we are already working with two new bases in Antarctica and have other projects in the pipeline that are truly exceptional, advancing science, and truly bespoke. And that is genuinely exciting, so being able to continue driving this project is also something very close to our hearts.

[00:13:26] Camille de Meeûs: Thank you, Louis, for your time, and all the best for the future.

[00:13:29] Louis De Muylder: Thank you very much, Camille.

• [00:01:10] The “I get it” syndrome
• [00:02:15] Why prospects think they understand too quickly
• [00:03:40] What makes a prospect shut down a conversation
• [00:05:18] How to get a prospect listening again without confrontation
• [00:05:36] PHCom’s approaches to dealing with “I get it”
• [00:08:48] The true role of the sales professional at that moment
• [00:09:41] When “I get it” can become the beginning of the real sale

[00:00:13] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the podcast "Performance, Harmony & Sales", produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

[00:00:23] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The "Performance, Harmony & Sales" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as business executives handling sales functions.

[00:00:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Every month, we share best practices for finding new clients for business-to-business companies.

[00:00:38] Nadia Ben Jelloun: You can find every episode on the PHCom dot be website—P-H-C-O-M—and also on all major podcast platforms.

[00:00:47] Stéphane Depaepe: You can support this podcast and boost its visibility by sharing it as widely as possible with a like, a comment, or a share.

[00:00:55] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The answering machine is always active so you can leave us a message; we'll be glad to get back to you.

[00:01:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by visiting phcom.be.

[00:01:06] Nadia Ben Jelloun: See you soon.

[00:01:07] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello, Ms. Harmony.

[00:01:08] Camille de Meeûs: Hello, Mr. Performance.

The “I get it” syndrome

[00:01:10] Stéphane Depaepe: Today's topic: "When the prospect thinks they understand before even listening". Welcome to PHCom, the podcast about prospecting, sales, and communication.

[00:01:20] Camille de Meeûs: With a topic today that every sales rep experiences, sometimes ten times a day, without always understanding what just happened.

[00:01:26] Stéphane Depaepe: That terrible phrase.

[00:01:27] Camille de Meeûs: "Yes, yes, I understand."

[00:01:29] Stéphane Depaepe: Usually followed by "We're not interested."

[00:01:32] Camille de Meeûs: When in reality, they haven't understood a single thing of what we're telling them.

[00:01:35] Stéphane Depaepe: They just categorized it too quickly.

[00:01:37] Camille de Meeûs: So today, we're going to talk about the "I get it" syndrome.

[00:01:41] Stéphane Depaepe: That moment when the prospect's brain shuts the door before it has even opened.

[00:01:46] Camille de Meeûs: But why does that actually happen?

[00:01:47] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes, why do certain words destroy a conversation in five seconds?

[00:01:51] Camille de Meeûs: And above all, how do you reopen a window of attention without becoming too pushy?

[00:01:54] Stéphane Depaepe: Because a good salesperson doesn't force people to listen.

[00:01:57] Camille de Meeûs: They reignite curiosity.

[00:01:59] Stéphane Depaepe: The "I get it" syndrome is not actual understanding. I'll be honest, when someone cuts me off on the phone after eight seconds with "Yeah yeah, I see exactly what you mean," I just want to reply, "No, actually, you don't!"

[00:02:11] Camille de Meeûs: Yes, but the problem is that the prospect genuinely thinks they've understood everything.

Why prospects think they understand too quickly

[00:02:15] Stéphane Depaepe: That's the trap.

[00:02:15] Camille de Meeûs: The human brain loves to move fast: it categorizes, it simplifies, and above all, it compares to something it already knows.

[00:02:22] Stéphane Depaepe: Basically. "Oh yeah, software. Right, yet another one. Oh, another consultant, a training salesperson, a financial solutions vendor."

[00:02:32] Camille de Meeûs: Exactly. And from that point on, the brain no longer tries to understand anything at all; it simply seeks to confirm its classification.

[00:02:39] Stéphane Depaepe: Are there theories behind that, Madame Harmonie?

[00:02:41] Camille de Meeûs: Exactly. In cognitive psychology, we talk a lot about mental shortcuts. The brain receives a huge amount of information every day, so it creates automatic categories to save energy. That's useful in everyday life, but catastrophic in prospecting, because a new offer is often put into the wrong box before it's even been explained.

[00:03:00] Stéphane Depaepe: And the busier the decision-maker is, the more intense this phenomenon becomes. In fact, what I understand is that they put it in the wrong box. For example, in real time, I call an industrial company to talk about an inventory financing solution. I say, "We support companies looking to optimize their inventory financing." And right away, the finance guy cuts me off: "Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I see, it's factoring." Game over.

[00:03:23] Camille de Meeûs: Yes, that's a wonderful example. You haven't even explained your model yet, but their brain has already made up its mind.

[00:03:28] Stéphane Depaepe: And if I reply, "No, you don't understand," I'm dead, obviously.

[00:03:32] Camille de Meeûs: Because you're attacking their intelligence, their status, their ego. And the real challenge here isn't to confront them head-on, it's to reopen their willingness to listen.

What makes a prospect shut down a conversation

[00:03:40] Stéphane Depaepe: Actually, there are three reasons why prospects quickly cut a conversation short. It's because they are sometimes overwhelmed, because they've had bad experiences, or because they are the top experts in their field. So let's talk about the first one: sales saturation. In fact, it's true: decision-makers are bombarded with information, emails, LinkedIn, phone calls, ads—their brain turns into a veritable anti-sales filter.

[00:04:08] Camille de Meeûs: So when they think they recognize something, they jump to conclusions to save time, even if that conclusion is completely wrong. The second reason, as you were saying, Mr. Performance, is past bad experiences. For example: a prospect can also project a past bad experience onto you. Like "We've already tried that, it doesn't work. We know what you're offering." Even though they're sometimes talking about a completely different solution that has nothing to do with it.

[00:04:32] Stéphane Depaepe: In fact, the previous salesperson created trauma, and you're the one paying the psychological bill. Alright, third reason: the expert stance. There are highly expert profiles; above all, they want to show that they already know.

[00:04:44] Camille de Meeûs: Interrupting therefore becomes a way to stay in control. "It's fine, don't explain, I know my job well enough, I don't need you."

[00:04:50] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes, but sometimes they aren't actually rejecting the offer, just the feeling of being challenged. Alright, quick example: the rushed executive type. Say I call a CEO, I start with "Hello, we help certain companies to..." "Wait, send me an email."

[00:05:08] Camille de Meeûs: A classic line, and often used as a defensive reflex.

[00:05:12] Stéphane Depaepe: Well, before I used to reply "Yes, of course," and obviously got no response afterward.

[00:05:16] Camille de Meeûs: Because there had never been any real listening.

How to get a prospect listening again without confrontation

[00:05:18] Stéphane Depaepe: On the other hand, there's a way to reframe this type of person too. Today, I rather reply, "I'm precisely going to avoid wasting your time. Just give me 20 seconds to tell you why certain companies listen to us despite an initial reflex."

[00:05:30] Camille de Meeûs: Great, that's really good! You don't confront them, you slow things down smartly, and above all, you spark a micro-curiosity.

PHCom’s approaches to dealing with “I get it”

[00:05:36] Stéphane Depaepe: That's one of the six remedies that PHC om has implemented to manage this phenomenon, this "I get it" syndrome. So, what is the first remedy, Madame Harmonie?

[00:05:47] Camille de Meeûs: The first remedy is about naming the phenomenon with elegance. Sometimes you have to verbalize what is happening—not aggressively, but with finesse. I'll give you an example: I think you've already put this into a box, and that's probably normal.

[00:06:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You tell them that? Okay, powerful. Because indeed, you lower the tension; you're not telling them "You're wrong." You're telling them "Your brain is doing its job." Nice, well played. Okay, I'll give you a second one. Second remedy: create a disruption right from the start.

[00:06:15] Camille de Meeûs: And that's where the opening words are decisive. Certain words immediately trigger automatic sorting.

[00:06:21] Stéphane Depaepe: I know that all too well. "I'm calling you about telecoms," BAM. "I'm calling you about training," BAM. "I'm calling you about consulting," Oh! "I'm calling you for consultancy," Ah! In fact, the brain immediately knows what comes next, of course. So, instead of saying "We offer inventory financing"—and it's instantly categorized. You can say, "We help certain companies free up cash flow without touching their bank credit lines."

[00:06:45] Camille de Meeûs: And that's when the brain no longer immediately knows which box to put the information into, so it listens. The third remedy: using productive suspense. What does that mean in concrete terms, Mr. Performance?

[00:06:57] Stéphane Depaepe: The worst sales reflex: explaining everything right away.

[00:07:01] Camille de Meeûs: Oh boy, when you give the whole answer right away, the brain categorizes it immediately. Whereas sometimes, you simply need to create a slight cognitive void.

[00:07:08] Stéphane Depaepe: For example: "If I summarize it in one sentence, you actually risk pigeonholing it too quickly, even though the interesting part is somewhere else."

[00:07:15] Camille de Meeûs: Excellent! That forces the brain to stay open for a few extra seconds.

[00:07:18] Stéphane Depaepe: And gaining a few seconds of attention and brain time—that's pure gold. Fourth remedy: get them talking before you explain.

[00:07:27] Camille de Meeûs: And in this case, the best antidote to mental projection is engagement. When prospects talk, they also listen differently.

[00:07:34] Stéphane Depaepe: Examples of useful questions—go on, I'll share them with you. "How do you manage that today?", "What is tricky about your current approach?", "Why don't certain solutions work for you?"—all those great open-ended questions. So, for example, if a prospect tells me, "Yes, yes, yes, I know that type of situation," instead of countering, I ask, "What have you seen so far in this area?" And then, brilliant: he talks to me for three minutes straight.

[00:08:00] Camille de Meeûs: And above all, they reveal their true perception of things to you. They'll tell you what they like, what they hate, their biases, their fears, their mood.

[00:08:08] Stéphane Depaepe: And often you then discover that they weren't talking about the same thing at all, hence the need to know how to adapt. Because you'll be able to leverage all the information they gave you.

[00:08:17] Camille de Meeûs: We're going to talk about the fifth remedy. It's about reframing shortcuts. For example: when a prospect makes a comparison to something, don't correct them immediately—explore, ask questions. A question like this: "When you say it's like X, what exactly do you have in mind?"

[00:08:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Wonderful question, because it actually turns a shutdown into a genuine conversation. Sixth remedy: brace yourself and redefine the time savings you will deliver. Many prospects want to move fast, but moving fast doesn't mean understanding fast.

The true role of the sales professional at that moment

[00:08:48] Camille de Meeûs: The salesperson's role isn't to slow things down artificially, but to prevent a premature conclusion. What is the salesperson's true role in the end? A modern salesperson isn't just a solution presenter; they are a guide of perception. They truly help the prospect see what they wouldn't have seen on their own.

[00:09:05] Stéphane Depaepe: And sometimes, the greatest challenge isn't convincing them; it's keeping the brain from jumping to conclusions too early.

[00:09:11] Camille de Meeûs: The "I get it" syndrome isn't a real rejection. It's often a rejection based on an understanding that is simply incomplete.

[00:09:17] Stéphane Depaepe: In fact, the prospect isn't always rejecting your solution. Sometimes, they're just rejecting the mental category they think they've boxed it into.

[00:09:26] Camille de Meeûs: It is therefore important to remember that the salesperson's role is not to force them to listen, but to recreate curiosity.

[00:09:32] Stéphane Depaepe: To slow down intelligently. To reopen a mental window, to generate enough interest to keep the brain from closing the case too early.

When “I get it” can become the beginning of the real sale

[00:09:41] Camille de Meeûs: And remember, when a prospect says, "Yes, I understand," the real sale sometimes begins at that exact moment, and it's up to you to seize it.

[00:09:48] Stéphane Depaepe: Understood? Well then, thank you for tuning in to this PHCom episode, and be sure to check out the six remedies in our posts on the phcom.be website.

[00:09:57] Camille de Meeûs: And don't forget, if this episode resonated with you, share it with a salesperson who too often hears, "Send me an email, I have other things to do."

[00:10:03] Stéphane Depaepe: And above all, keep prospecting smartly.

[00:10:05] Camille de Meeûs: With honesty and humanity, most of all.

[00:10:07] Stéphane Depaepe: See you soon.

[00:10:08] Camille de Meeûs: See you soon.

• [00:00:21] Introducing Finrack
• [00:00:28] What does Finrack do?
• [00:01:38] What sets Finrack apart?
• [00:01:57] Differences between Belgium and France
• [00:03:12] Today's biggest commercial challenges
• [00:03:39] Building long-term customer relationships
• [00:04:06] What makes a great salesperson?
• [00:04:31] Finrack's commercial objectives
• [00:04:43] The future of Finrack
• [00:05:05] Finrack's greatest strength
• [00:05:36] Closing remarks

[00:00:19] Caroline Gasia: Hi David.

[00:00:20] David Van der Looven: Hi Caroline.

Introducing Finrack

[00:00:21] Caroline Gasia: Great to have you as our guest today on our podcast for PHCom. First, tell us a bit about Finrack.

What does Finrack do?

[00:00:28] David Van der Looven: First of all, I am also very happy to be here with you. Finrack is a Belgian fintech based in Brussels that operates across Europe in a very specific niche: asset financing, and more specifically, the financing of stock, of inventory. Inventory actually ties up a company's working capital; there is capital locked in there that cannot be used anywhere else. We have seen that during COVID, just-in-time delivery has been on the decline, and more and more inventory is being built up worldwide, so stock levels are rising globally, which means more capital is tied up. And we started looking for a way to make that tied-up capital partly liquid again. And what does Finrack actually do? We purchase the inventory, and the client can buy back their stock with an exclusive buyback option at the same value at which it was sold. So, as they need their inventory, they can also buy those stocks back. This is done very smoothly in a digital way. So there is... What lies behind it may be complicated, but in practice, it is very simple, and they have additional resources.

What sets Finrack apart?

[00:01:38] Caroline Gasia: What distinguishes you from the competition today?

[00:01:41] David Van der Looven: Well, when we started looking at opportunities to finance stock worldwide, we were very surprised to see that there are actually very few instruments for stock financing. That is why we jumped into that gap. And honestly, there is virtually no competition in that area.

Differences between Belgium and France

[00:01:57] Caroline Gasia: Do you see differences between the French, Belgian, or other markets?

[00:02:00] David Van der Looven: Finrack is actually present in the eurozone. The countries we chose to develop from the start are actually the Benelux and France. France is an important one because there is a more digital mindset among entrepreneurs there, and also, for example, unlike in Belgium where you have a fairly good level of service from the banks. While you have a quasi-monopoly of five banks serving the market, you don't have that in France. And what do we actually see there? That entrepreneurs will consult a bank when looking for financing, but at the same time will also consult a network of independent financial brokers, credit brokers, to find a solution. And it is actually that network of independent intermediaries that we work with and that actually promotes Finrack in France, and that works very well. For a start-up like Finrack, it is of course a very good sales channel, because you are dealing with a variable cost. And if financing is provided, then revenue is generated and you pay a commission to that intermediary. If they do nothing, then you have no cost. Unlike other channels where you often have to invest upfront and you don't know what the return will be and when that return will come.

Today's biggest commercial challenges

[00:03:12] Caroline Gasia: What are the biggest commercial challenges today?

[00:03:15] David Van der Looven: The challenge, of course, when you come up with a new product, regardless of whether it is financial or not, is to market that product and develop sales channels. And we look for any sales channel in doing so, but as a young company, you also have to control your budgets. And yes, we do some testing to develop new sales channels, such as cold calling, for which we started working with PHCom.

Building long-term customer relationships

[00:03:39] Caroline Gasia: How do you ensure that customers remain loyal in the long term?

[00:03:42] David Van der Looven: Yes. Retaining customer relationships, the customers we have—what is very important is simply offering very good service, and also maintaining contact with your customer. We are a digital company, we usually do not see our customers physically, but if you combine that with a video call or a phone call, which establishes your presence with the customer, you still build a very strong relationship.

What makes a great salesperson?

[00:04:06] Caroline Gasia: What competencies do you think a good sales representative absolutely must have today?

[00:04:10] David Van der Looven: Very simple, an adage for a good sales representative is: "don't promise too much and deliver more than you promised", it's actually about expectation management. It is very simple, if a client expects a lot and you don't deliver, they are dissatisfied. If you promise little and deliver more, then you are a god to your client, and that is what we ultimately strive for.

Finrack's commercial objectives

[00:04:31] Caroline Gasia: What are Finrack's commercial objectives today?

[00:04:34] David Van der Looven: Yes, the commercial objective for Finrack is of course to grow, grow, grow, grow and become as big as possible. So yes, finding and acquiring new clients.

The future of Finrack

[00:04:43] Caroline Gasia: How do you see the future of Finrack? What plans are on the agenda?

[00:04:47] David Van der Looven: What is planned for the future of Finrack is that we grow bigger, that we can cover more countries geographically, and that we also further fine-tune the financing product and perhaps create a number of sub-products that fit well into certain niches in the market.

Finrack's greatest strength

[00:05:05] Caroline Gasia: In your opinion, what is Finrack's greatest strength today?

[00:05:08] David Van der Looven: Yes, the unique selling point of the Finrack model is actually the valuation algorithm that we developed to have a correct valuation of the stock in real time, at any given moment. Nobody at this moment is capable of doing that, and that is also what banks are now starting to look at and consult us on, whether they could potentially make use of this algorithm to improve their risk management.

Closing remarks

[00:05:36] Caroline Gasia: Thank you very much, David, and best of luck.

[00:05:39] David Van der Looven: You're very welcome.

• [00:00:00] Introduction
• [00:01:07] Introducing Finrack
• [00:01:20] Why inventory financing has become a strategic business challenge
• [00:03:16] How the Finrack platform works
• [00:03:43] An innovation with virtually no competition
• [00:04:07] The commercial challenges of a fintech
• [00:04:58] Distribution channels and the role of financial intermediaries
• [00:06:03] Finding the right customers
• [00:06:19] Why the French market is more receptive
• [00:06:48] Convincing private investors
• [00:07:27] Essential sales skills
• [00:07:52] Building long-term customer loyalty in a digital environment
• [00:08:34] The mantra "Underpromise & Overdeliver"
• [00:08:47] Why Finrack works with PHCom
• [00:10:09] Confidentiality and trust in business financing
• [00:10:42] Cold calling as a business development strategy
• [00:11:19] Finrack's future ambitions
• [00:11:43] Finrack's inventory valuation algorithm: a unique competitive advantage
• [00:13:08] Conclusion

[00:00:13] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the podcast "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial", produced by PHCom in the transforma bxl studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org"

[00:00:23] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial" podcast is intended for marketing and sales managers, as well as business leaders with commercial roles.

[00:00:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Every month, we share with you best practices in searching for new clients for businesses active in business-to-business.

[00:00:38] Nadia Ben Jelloun: You can find each episode on the PHCom dot be website. P.H.C.om, and also on all good podcast platforms.

[00:00:47] Stéphane Depaepe: You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, a comment, a share.

[00:00:55] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The voicemail is still active so you can leave us a message, we'll answer with great pleasure.

[00:01:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by going to PHCom dot be.

[00:01:06] Nadia Ben Jelloun: See you soon.

Introducing Finrack

[00:01:07] Camille de Meeûs: Hello David.

[00:01:08] David Van der Looven: Hello Camille.

[00:01:09] Camille de Meeûs: We are super happy to welcome you today to our PHCom podcast. So, here we are going to talk about business development and your activity. What do you actually do at Finrack?

Why inventory financing has become a strategic business challenge

[00:01:20] David Van der Looven: Finrack is a Belgian Fintech based in Brussels, which has found an innovative solution to finance stock.

[00:01:29] Camille de Meeûs: What do we mean by stock, concretely?

[00:01:31] David Van der Looven: All the material that is stored for a company's production or sale. In fact, the stock was on the road; it was the just-in-time principle. And when Covid hit, we have seen global inventories rise ever since. There was Covid, which obviously disrupted the transport chain, but afterwards plenty of events reinforced this trend. There was the big ship that blocked the canal with its containers, there is the war in Ukraine, and then geopolitically there is a tendency to stockpile things that have become a bit scarcer, so that's why inventories are rising globally. When we looked into whether it was financeable, we saw that there are very few tools to finance a company's inventory. And a company's inventory is ultimately capital—money that is tied up and cannot be used for working capital, to grow the company. So, we started looking for a solution for this, and actually what Finrack does is inventory sale and buyback. So, Finrack buys the company's inventory, and gradually the company can buy back its inventory at the same price. What is fundamental is the valuation, because behind it there are investors who put up their money, and it is with this money that we buy the inventory at a valuation that Finrack will perform. Because we need to protect our investors; if the company runs into trouble and goes into liquidation, well, ultimately the repurchase option, which is exclusive to the seller, will become void, and Finrack will have to sell this inventory to compensate its investors.

How the Finrack platform works

[00:03:16] Camille de Meeûs: And how do all these exchanges, all these partnerships work? Is it through a platform that you have created?

[00:03:21] David Van der Looven: Of course, it's an online platform; everything happens online. Also for inventory tracking, we build connectors with the digital inventory management tool, so we have real-time information on the inventory. How it moves, what is sold, what comes in, so we actually monitor this inventory in real-time.

[00:03:41] Camille de Meeûs: Is there a lot of competition in this field?

An innovation with virtually no competition

[00:03:43] David Van der Looven: When you look at it, there are almost no inventory financing tools; it is something that hasn't really been addressed. So no, there is almost no competition; it is something innovative and new.

[00:03:54] Camille de Meeûs: So we can feel there is a real need then (David Van der Looven: Exactly, exactly), you arrived at the right time?

[00:03:57] David Van der Looven: Exactly, exactly. Because a company that has freed up the funds locked in its inventory can do other things, such as focusing on the company's growth.

The commercial challenges of a fintech

[00:04:07] Camille de Meeûs: Now we are going to talk more about the commercial aspect within Finrack. What are the current challenges?

[00:04:13] David Van der Looven: The biggest challenges for every startup and also Fintech is finding distribution channels; that is the major weakness of a Fintech compared to banks. They have a huge client network, while we come in with a new product that we have to bring to market, but we also need to find distribution channels, sales channels that are profitable. At Finrack, we've been very pragmatic; we launched in several countries, we've been active since September 2024, and we try to work as much as possible with financing intermediaries. As a result, they are paid a commission, and for us it is a variable cost, so that is very advantageous for developing the company. If there are no sales, there are no costs. If there are sales, you pay a commission but you have revenue coming in. And we can see that in Europe, in the countries where we are present—the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France—it has developed very strongly in France. So an entrepreneur in France will consult, yes, their bank, but alongside that, they will consult independent intermediaries specialized in business financing. So, there is strong traction there, and I must also say, I previously ran another Fintech and we had already developed this network, so we are partly falling back on this same network. And that is mainly our area of development today. Another area is neobanks looking for interesting services for their clients, and obviously everything related to digital distribution channels. It's a bit more complicated because there you often have to invest a lot upfront, without knowing what will come out of it and when. So we do a bit of both, but in a moderate way. But our strongest traction is the network of professional financing intermediaries, let's say.

Finding the right customers

[00:06:03] Camille de Meeûs: And so in your field, finding the right clients at the right time takes time, I imagine?

[00:06:08] David Van der Looven: It takes time, yes, it's an investment, indeed.

[00:06:11] Camille de Meeûs: We were just talking about France. How can we explain this difference in commercialization? Why is it, quote-unquote, easier in France than in Belgium? Because it's a larger country? Because...

Why the French market is more receptive

[00:06:19] David Van der Looven: Not necessarily that, it's a bit of a mindset. But there is also a reality: if we take the example of Belgium, we have a near-monopoly of five banks serving the market, and serving it quite well. In France, it's a completely different situation. And that means that the entrepreneur there, first of all, I find them to be more digital, and second of all, since the French banking market is not as well-served as in Belgium, they are looking.

[00:06:45] Camille de Meeûs: So there is more of a need, actually?

[00:06:47] David Van der Looven: There is more of a need, yes.

Convincing private investors

[00:06:48] Camille de Meeûs: What is your greatest commercial success?

[00:06:50] David Van der Looven: Finrack's greatest commercial success is not on the side of the inventory sellers—those are the parties who need money. But I would say it's more on the investor side, private investors, also organized as companies, who are ready to put their money into buying inventory. Since Finrack is young—we started in September 2024—we don't have a long track record there. So really, the greatest commercial success is succeeding in convincing investors to put their money into purchasing inventory.

Essential sales skills

[00:07:27] Camille de Meeûs: What sales skills seem essential to you today?

[00:07:30] David Van der Looven: As a Fintech and a startup, we are quite flexible, we aren't rigid, so on the inventory seller side, we are a young company with an innovative concept, and we adapt to clients as we go. What are the actual needs in the market? You shouldn't create a very rigid product; you need to adapt it gradually to the real needs of the market.

Building long-term customer loyalty in a digital environment

[00:07:52] Camille de Meeûs: Speaking of clients, how do you retain your clients over the long term?

[00:07:57] David Van der Looven: Providing good service. If customers are well served, even if you are more expensive than the others, they stay longer, that's it. And of course, even if we are a digital company, it's about having a certain direct presence. It's not physical, but calling your clients from time to time to see if everything is okay, to maintain the connection, is super important.

[00:08:21] Camille de Meeûs: To have real flexibility, availability.

[00:08:24] David Van der Looven: The biggest compliment is when a client tells you, "Yes, we work digitally, we've never met. But there's human warmth behind this digital company."

The mantra "Underpromise & Overdeliver"

[00:08:34] Camille de Meeûs: David, do you have a quote, or a punchline, or a mantra that you like in sales, something that you repeat often?

[00:08:40] David Van der Looven: The main thing for a successful sale is very simple: underpromise and overdeliver, you have to manage expectations well.

Why Finrack works with PHCom

[00:08:47] Camille de Meeûs: Okay, awesome. Now we're going to talk about the collaboration with PHCom. Finrack has existed since September 2024, when did it start with PHCom and why did you reach out to PHCom?

[00:08:56] David Van der Looven: Finrack started in September 2024, so obviously we are beginning to look at how to develop the sales side. What was most obvious for us was the networks of independent financing intermediaries, credit and financing brokers. But obviously we are also looking to develop digital channels, and we have also looked at other possible channels. One channel was cold-calling, trying to get data on companies, and sorting this data in such a way that we reach potential clients who have a desire to finance their inventory. And that is how I got in touch with PHCom in early 2025. We did a test in Belgium, on a sample of companies, and it was not very conclusive at first. It must also be said that our sales cycle is quite long. But anyway, there were some initial results, so we decided, at the end of 2025, to run a second test that is currently underway, and which is focused more on France, as we know that this target audience in France is much more interested because they are underserved. And so, it's underway.

Confidentiality and trust in business financing

[00:10:09] Camille de Meeûs: Everything related to financial aspects and investments, those are still quite touchy subjects. Is there a specific way to approach these people?

[00:10:16] David Van der Looven: Yes, it's touchy, but those who need financing are ready to do whatever it takes. Of course, we also work with non-disclosure agreements, so that the client's data is well protected. In practice, it's not something that creates a major bottleneck, no; the client wants to get financing, and if we set up the framework properly with the non-disclosure agreement, it goes over quite easily, yeah.

Cold calling as a business development strategy

[00:10:42] Camille de Meeûs: Do you think that working with PHCom has allowed you to save time, in a certain sense?

[00:10:47] David Van der Looven: Certainly because cold-calling is really a very specific line of work. First of all, finding people to do that yourself is no easy task. And obviously, by working with PHC om and doing tests, we don't really invest in it; instead, it is once again a variable cost. So, having a partner who specializes in cold-calling and whom you can call upon on an ad hoc basis... It is much more advantageous for a young company like ours.

Finrack's future ambitions

[00:11:19] Camille de Meeûs: What is your next ambition, your next sales objective? What can we wish you?

[00:11:23] David Van der Looven: That the second test with PHCom shows results that will allow us to keep working this channel, which would obviously be an additional channel. The ultimate goal of Finrack is obviously growth, and also to evolve towards a SaaS model, so that it is simple plug-and-play for our clients.

Finrack's inventory valuation algorithm: a unique competitive advantage

[00:11:43] Camille de Meeûs: What is Finrack's main strength today?

[00:11:45] David Van der Looven: The very unique thing about the Finrack model is the valuation algorithm we developed. So, this algorithm makes it possible to determine the purchase price of the inventory from the inventory seller, from the client seeking financing. But it must also protect investors, ensuring that the inventory they put their money into and its purchase price hold up. And ultimately, what do we need to do with this valuation algorithm? It is to have a price that allows us, if the seller ever goes into liquidation, to know we can sell this inventory in the short term at at least the price we bought it for, to compensate the investors. And this doesn't exist anywhere else in the market. We have no sector restrictions, so we deal with any kind of inventory—it's very diverse—and the expertise we are developing with this algorithm is being able to value any inventory at a suitable price. And we can see that a few banks are already approaching us, and they are interested in this exact algorithm, because today they sometimes grant credit based on the business assets where the inventory is also located, but they have no idea of the value of that inventory. It's a bit like, they take the balance sheet, which is a snapshot of the inventory at a certain point in time, but tomorrow it could be different; they don't have this capability to track the inventory in real time, so there you go.

Conclusion

[00:13:08] Camille de Meeûs: Thank you, David.

[00:13:09] David Van der Looven: Thank you, Camille.